I have a really heavy RL schedule this morning, and it’s going to be insanely hectic for me, so when I woke up this morning and saw that there were several comments on my last blog post regarding balance issues with the Wave Katana, I was not able to get up to speed before work interfered.
Rather than having that discussion attached to an unrelated topic, I thought it might be good to add a new post where that discussion can take place. I am encouraging everyone to post their comments on such issues here. This will allow me to catch up as soon as I have the time later today, and will hopefully encourage more people to take part in the discussion.
Thank you.
146 Comments
omg, pleasseeeeeee , dont touch the wave, unless it cosmetic. OMG, please dont, i beg of you from the bottom of all my clone pixels, do not change the wave.
poof
omg, i need to say this, but unless a sword is new, or Linden has broken them again, please done change it, we work hard to get used to the quirks of each weapon. If your desire to change is to strong, creat a new sword, calle it V2.0 Tinker Sword
sell it seperatly 
Poofs again
I agree with Shiori, The Wave is perfect as is, it is the best Katana in all of C:SI, at least for me. I cant imagine changing any of the scripting, its perfect as is. If you do anything, cosmetic changes might be nice, but the scripting is perfect and my entire style has been formed around it.
btw, I need two Waves asap, email me if you can get them to me 
thanks 
New Katana from Daikon Forge would be welcomed. Even if it was slight differences, I and many would pick them up, your Katana are the best as far as I am concerned and I have bought dozens for others because they are so good. Please leave the scripting as it is.
Love you Robby
mhmmmmmmmm… Well, I for one don’t think the Wave needs a make over. Not everyone wants to fight with scuplty. Some people think the sculpty stuff lags. I just think it’s a nice option. :3 However, I’m sure that’s not what Robby will be changing. Maybe the Taketori gets a sweet bamboo special? Kinda like the Ronin but, with like leaves and bamboo shoots flying at ya like a hundred bullets?! O_O! lol Whatever the change may be, I’m sure it’ll be one(s) that will be good for them… Just don’t touch the Kodachi’s special or I’ll have to come hunt you down! lol It’s the ONLY special I think is useful in a normal fight. What’s that? Omnidirectional? You wanna jump around like a freak? That’s cool. *shoots jumpers down like a sniper! lol
I hope what I am about to say doesn’t offend anyone or hurt anyone’s feelings. My intention is not to make anyone defensive, so I hope some of Robby’s readers will take what I’m saying seriously and not see it as an attack.
I went over most of this on my own blog here on balance: http://kasumihashislblog.wordpress.com/2009/09/21/balance/. I actually think its a pretty complicated subject just in that my understanding of balance is supported by an older period that only a couple of people will remember, and so hard to convey what experience tells me without that same experience. So I won’t go over all of what I said in my own blog post, but just want to make a couple of points here.
There is a very serious, obvious and drastic problem with the Wave’s speed. Rain and I have an easy way of demonstrating it if anyone is interested. Its so obvious, that when we showed Domo, his first reaction was “we should ban those things.” When we showed Robby, he not only saw the problem but even had some ideas how how it could have happened Almost every experienced fighter I know either admits its faster (even those that use it), or will only admit its faster after at first denying it, then moving to reasons why its ok for it to be faster.
This is not was C:SI was or was intended to be. The variety between the katana’s is supposed to be about style and feel; none of them are supposed to be stronger than another. Yes they all have quirks… Musashi jumps very fast from the second sword slash back to block and is hard to jump slash with, Arch combos easier and jump slashes easier, but sometimes feels sticky, Ashes do the air moves easiest but the animations give away the next move from block more than the others. This is vastly different than what is going on with Wave.
When Rain and I experimented, we found that after he hit my block with a sword slash and when back to block, I was not able to counter him. The only thing I got was the block bug, which only looks like a good hit but isn’t. I know not everyone is a tanker, but everyone tanks for brief moments, and the speed issue alone will manifest in all styles.
Now to me the difference has been clear for over a year, and I have kinda torn my hair out at times listening to people deny it. To me there is nothing more certain or more obvious about any weapon in C:SI. It could be that I’m more sensitive than some to C:SI weapons after a long time using them, but I know lots of others can tell too and don’t think its a problem. It is a problem, the right thing to do is fix it, and I think if everyone not wanting a change really thought about it you would see its the right thing to do and one of the easiest steps to improve this system over all.
Anyway, not going to rehash my own blog post in Robby’s comments, but I hope that when Robby makes this improvement and restores more balance to a system who’s success has been the unique way it has found balance between the swords and within the combat itself, that people accept it and learn to do without their hyper speed katana.
You people need to understand Robby’s feeling when he was making his weapons. I’m sure he was just as focus and devoted as a real katana blacksmith. The beauty of it’s texture, shape and the animation are what Robby wants us to like. Do you think Robby will feel glad to know people buy his weapons because they are bugged? And the agony of hearing people complain about the bugs being fixed. I can not remember the last time people didn’t want bugs to be fixed. Robby will do what he must because he is a responsible man, even if people do not understand why. I know Robby will do his best to fix all the bugs he knows up to this point. Because nothing is “Perfect”, therefore the devs will always try to improve their products, not just for their pride as sword makers, but also for our benefits as well.
This is in no way directed towards anyone directly. This is to the general C:SI public:
I think people complain about “balance” way to frickin’ much. Every weapon is different. There are weapons that are better than others. You’re NEVER going to have a completely balanced weapon. With SL constantly changing you’re going to constantly have issues. I’m a little sick of people also saying that they’re going to ban this or that weapon because people think it’s a cheater weapon. I have been just as guilty with this. I did it with the Nagi. Though I “PROVED” that the Nagi’s kick was too long, guess what? It doesn’t matter! The Nagi isn’t this almighty weapon that is unbeatable. INFACT I’ve beaten Nagi users with a Ninjaken. This is the same in real life. No one weapon is the same. You’re going to have weapons that are better than others. It’s the user that’s the most important.
ALL of the C:SI designers work hard so that we have something fun to play with in SL. People have this misunderstanding that this is a business to them… it’s NOT. It’s a hobby! A HOBBY! (I’m like 90% sure about this! lol) Yes they make money off of it and they should dang it but, they can drop it in a heart beat if they felt like it and no can say jack. I think we should be more appreciative of what we have. They don’t have to work as hard as they do for us. To be honest, I don’t know why they do sometimes when all I hear are complaints. I don’t care who gets offended! They work frickin’ REAL hard on these! Give ‘em a FREAKING BREAK! Bottom line?
Shut up and fight!
lol. i concur. thanks for the great work robby, even with all these complaints from people that you see, i’m sure we all appreciate the hard work you’ve put into these weapons! And from me, no matter what people say, i’ll always use whatever you make. I love how you have different animations and scripts for each weapon you make and it makes watching matches all the more interesting. Don’t be changin’ things that don’t need fixin’. <3
Shindo: When you say that there are weapons better than others, and there will never be balance, you are kind of making my point on accident. There actually was balance among katanas prior to the speed problems on the wave. There was a time when there was not a weapon better than another. That has been the developer’s intent adn Robby’s intent. The balance between Musashi, Arch and Ashes katana’s has stayed consistent among SL’s changes. So its also not about SL flukiness.
I understand Robby doesn’t support himself off C:SI income, but they all have made an investment in the way we have too, in time and reading blogs and whatever else. Robby knows I’m not complaining but giving honest and quality feedback. The person below you admits in SL that she is “not so good” without the wave, but says here that it doesn’t need to be fixed. No one is doing him any favors by constantly telling him there is no problem or masking the problem under compliments about how its “easier to use” or “works the best”. He actually wants and is trying for balance in his weapons, and rightly so.
Being appreciative of their work is a great point, but when you label bringing problems to their attention as complaining you are doing them a diservice. It took a lot of noise to make Arch aware that his Nagi was broken on the kick, and from what I hear has fixed it for the coming update. There is not good reason to not give them accurate information when their stuff is broken, especially when it improves the system. I am pretty sure they would prefer that anyway.
Two more things. I forgot to mention two comments ago that I could get every counter when Rain used Arch or Musashi.
And second… two guys have recently come back that were around for the early Shrouded Isle in Jan-March of 2007. We were all in Meiji and I was sitting there on the wall. A regular wave/take user was fighting someone, and they both started IMs with me like this:
[2009/09/27 10:30] Oldbie 1: That wave Katana really is bugged huh? o.o
[2009/09/27 10:33] Kasumi Hashi: yeah
[2009/09/27 10:33] Kasumi Hashi: super cheap
[2009/09/27 10:33] Kasumi Hashi: http://kasumihashislblog.wordpress.com/2009/09/21/balance/
[2009/09/27 10:33] Oldbie 1: Mhm.
[2009/09/27 10:33] Oldbie 1: Kickickickick
[2009/09/27 10:33] Oldbie 1: Before people can even get 1 slash
[2009/09/27 10:33] Oldbie 1: I heard it was speed bugged, but didn’t know it was -this- bad
[2009/09/27 10:34] Oldbie 1: Seeing ______ just kickspamming without even using tactics over there..Makes me just go “O.o”
[2009/09/27 10:36] Oldbie 1: And yea, good point on kick damage in that text.
[2009/09/27 10:36] Oldbie 1: Me and Oldbie 2 tested, him spamming slash, me kick.
[2009/09/27 10:36] Oldbie 1: Same damage output.
[2009/09/27 10:36] Oldbie 1: Kicks should be used to counter blocks, and when someones stunned, not as a main damage attack.
[2009/09/27 10:37] Kasumi Hashi: yeah
[2009/09/27 10:37] Kasumi Hashi: lol, im glad you guys came back
[2009/09/27 10:37] Kasumi Hashi: these people started after all this
[2009/09/27 10:37] Oldbie 1: Yeah, i know.
[2009/09/27 10:37] Oldbie 1: They don’t know how effed it is now.
[2009/09/11 19:48] Oldbie 2: I find the Wave katana, really anoying
[2009/09/11 19:48] Kasumi Hashi: yeah..
[2009/09/11 19:48] Oldbie 2: Yea, kick is anoying
“There actually was balance among katanas prior to the speed problems on the wave.”
As far as I know, at that time everyone was using the same basic script for all weapons. The only changes were animations. If all you wanted were clones of the same weapon with a different look, then this would be fine. But, people don’t want that do they? So with weapons like the Nagi, Ninjaken and Blood Drinkers, you’re going to have unbalance. You seem to be focusing only on the wave and I guess I should make clear that I was talking about ALL weapons.
“Being appreciative of their work is a great point, but when you label bringing problems to their attention as complaining you are doing them a diservice.”
Which brings me to my next point. I’ve heard that people were saying that the wave is “cheap” before. Then again, I’ve heard that with just about EVERY weapon that has come out. “BD’s are cheap” “Nagi is cheap” And so on. I’m not saying don’t point out things that are seriously wrong with weapons. That would just be stupid. Of course people like Robby want/need to know if something is wrong with there weapon. However, people don’t need to go around whining how this or that weapon is cheap. When BETA testing weapons, I give Robby a note card on things that I think are out of place. Even if it’s the final product and there’s bugs that are super obvious or not. My whole problem is that people address issues like whiny like punks more than helpful people. Seems like everyone has to have an excuse for losing. I got sick of that. I lose like every time I fight and still if I win ONCE, it was because I’m using a Taketori, have an AO on (which is modded and made for C:SI! Thanks Hinamori!:D) or simply lag. If anyone is confused, let me make this more simple:
Sharing with the creator bugs about weapons = Good
Whining and complaining about bugs to other people = BAD!
Just two sayings “It’s not what you says but, HOW you say it.” and “Shut up and fight!”
(Again not directed towards any one person. This is a general comment. :p)
I think balance is just one of the tools we have to “measure” CSI swords, but its the principal for me. In more than a year learning and enjoying how to play this my only online game, I had get an important arsenal of swords from the four brands. I have my favorites, and is not about the look but how confortable I feel fighing with them. I had found that if I want to be more precise on my jump attacks, y choose an Ashes, but I still can do the same with any other brand even with a Musashi eventhoug I must do a variation on my timing if want to do a single jump
With time i just found I loved Robby’s swords also because of thier animations, and finally I undestand about the timing using Wave and Taketori swords…… but each time I went back to use any other sword, I noticed I was tuffer fighter using Wave. With time I understood my style was boosted each time I fought with the Wave, and I know every person that has some other swords than the Wave agrees with me on this point. But I don’t think this is cheating. I just think is not fair for me to fight an average fighter using another sword, and I must admit it was the first time I feel close to kill my teacher on those days when I first start to use the Wave.
I love to fight with regular katanas, but also use from time to time the special ones and this year I just put the Wave on the specal group one even Wave being a regular katana, so I must say I only use Wave when going to take part on a tournament.
Now, with time my goal has become to beat ppl using Wave or even Taketori with a regular katana, I consider myself and Arch user.
After more than a year on CSI I must say I enjoy also teaching new ppl on CSI and each time I had being asked by this new ones arriving I encorage them first to get a balanced sword before any special one. Why? because they are just learning and if they get the Wave or any special first, is my thinking, they will be boosted from the beggining and with time when they want to try another sword, they will feel stepping down instead of continue their improving.
So I am not saying the Wave need to be changed, I love it as it is. I think there is no cheap swords, I uses the most of all, and each sword has its charming because my goal is not to be the best swordfighter or be part of the tops, but to enjoy my fights, and that involves a lot more that the sword I choose…. a lot more.
I know I can not explaing exactly how the Wave works and its bugs, but all the swors have bugs, so I think the developers still have a lot of work to do on their new items as same as on the previous. We the fighters will continue fighting, but the discussions will continue principally because we all have our own feelings about each sword and we get our preferences due this feelings.
So Robby, this is my thinking being a regular guy on CSI having most of all swords.
Have a nice day CSI fighters
Shindo again (lol): They are all still supposed to have the same “basic” script. I don’t know all the tweaks each of them introduces, but that part has not changed.
And its debatable what people want and why they want it. I bet you are right that the majority of people that use Wave would like it to rarely stun, like it does now, or get hits in fake gaps, like it does now, or be uncounterable from block-hit-block, as it does now. I personally think there is just a much more compelling case for balance in the system, and a majority can be wrong about that (its called the democractic fallacy). I have yet hear a single argument why imbalance is preferable that does fall apart under the tiniest bit of scrutiny. I actually think the best argument is simply saying you don’t care, as you kind of do. But that doesn’t address the issue, just opts out of it.
And it also sounds to me like you would not personally be affected if they did balance things, which we seem to now agree is not impossible as you said earlier? And I actually think the ninjaken is totally balanced. I think a small tweak *might* be needed for the BDs, and the nagi is going to be fixed once they do the update. So I actually think there are only 3 weapons that need attention, Wave, Take and *possibly* BDs. Then you would have balance and difference, which I don’t get why you think is impossible. The Ninjaken alone proves its possible (kick is counterable more so that BDs for example).
You are also confusing excuse making for real concerns about a severly imbalanced weapon. I agree that petty excuse making is just that, petty. If you look at the clan materials I developed for Tendai 3 years ago this October you would see I address it and do so with every clan I make. But just because people make petty excuses, that does not mean there are not legitimate concerns about the Wave. Also, I often think its bunk as I beat them, and when I use them I sometimes say out loud “that was such BS” because I get all sorts of hits that were never possible before and should not be possible. How is it an excuse when I am appalled at my own wins with it? So you are confusing petty excuses with having a standard in not taking advantages sanctioned or otherwise. But I actually had some noob get pissed that I had a legal AO on, and put his illegal, sword covering one on to prove some point, which resulted in a massive spanking. I am with you on that issue, but this is simply not that issue.
Well, some heated discussions, yay
Anyways, i don’t think any of the weapons are perfect, please don’t make assumptions on things i never said. My point is , i have learned the quirks of each weapon, and adjust my fighting style to each weapons quirks, weather the block killers, or whatever. My point is that after so long , changing the behavour of the weapon, makes it a new weapon to have to learn in my opinion. False hits are a problem, and there no way to know how many HP are being done. I measured 16HP kick the other day with the 1.3.2 hud.
Personally, if you fix one, you should fix all the problems that been identfied with all the weapons, like the jump bug in the musashis, stop the specials out the ass to
Not to mention the super lag i get on the dynasty, i never see its kicks, so we better fix that as its unbalances me 
Maybe all the devs should do some real benchmarks.
I think its a good idea to have some timing variations amongst vendors, within say a defined set of specs. Or maybe the timing could be more randomized with a range, to give it a more realistic feel. All weapons balanced but unbalanced sorta
I think Shindo point that if all the swords were identical, then whats the point having more then one available.
Ok, anyways, if the sword changes it changes, then we can all gripe about the new set of issues.
I personally want to see an option to disable health regen during a dual, this to me will make it more exciting.
here some timings i did last week:
http://members.shaw.ca/forum976/combos.txt
interesting how in some weapons if you change what you are doing you can get quicker actions.
Anyays, maybe it would help if we knew exactly what the changes are going to be, ie: strike timing goes from 100ms to 200ms.
I agree with a lot of what you said, but the problem is the different developers have different levels of visability. Robby and Esprite are around a lot and pretty responsive to people. I think the ninjaken kick was an issue and he fixed it pretty quick, which was a balance related concern. And Robby of course is very visible and involved. I think a couple Musashi’s could be improved, mainly the dual katanas being so weak and the weird glitchiness of Ronin/Dynasty and the hidden animations (I’ve noticed that too).
But do you think Ashes, Musashi, and Arch katanas are exactly the same? Because they really aren’t. They are just balanced and have the same power. That’s what balance is, and not making things indistiguishable.
I have heard rumors about the system wide update.. that they were going to bring the kick power back down to where it was a couple years ago, fix the nagi kick range, etc. When Rain and I demoed the Wave issues for Robby, I talked about the bug with blocking so he would get why some hits look ok when they were really blocked by wave (then Rain wore his HUD so wasn’t needed). But in the course of that convo I pointed out when it started (after the block update in early 07) and he seemed optimistic kinda about a fix to that too. So I think there are a lot of things that it would be cool if they found a fix for (if SL allows), but this issue is kinda unique. Actually if you IM me in world I can explain a dynamic that’s not appropriate here really.
I agree with a lot of what you said, but the problem is the different developers have different levels of visability. Robby and Esprite are around a lot and pretty responsive to people. I think the ninjaken kick was an issue and he fixed it pretty quick, which was a balance related concern. And Robby of course is very visible and involved. I think a couple Musashi’s could be improved, mainly the dual katanas being so weak and the weird glitchiness of Ronin/Dynasty and the hidden animations (I’ve noticed that too).
But do you think Ashes, Musashi, and Arch katanas are exactly the same? Because they really aren’t. They are just balanced and have the same power. That’s what balance is, and not making things indistiguishable.
I have heard rumors about the system wide update.. that they were going to bring the kick power back down to where it was a couple years ago, fix the nagi kick range, etc. When Rain and I demoed the Wave issues for Robby, I talked about the bug with blocking so he would get why some hits look ok when they were really blocked by wave (then Rain wore his HUD so wasn’t needed). But in the course of that convo I pointed out when it started (after the block update in early 07) and he seemed optimistic kinda about a fix to that too. So I think there are a lot of things that it would be cool if they found a fix for (if SL allows), but this issue is kinda unique. Actually if you IM me in world I can explain a dynamic that’s not appropriate here really.
I’ve watched as the Wave Katana has become more and more popular on Meiji. Same goes for the Take. I’ve witnessed the obvious issues they present within a system that up to their introduction has been, more or less “balanced.” After using them myself, I honestly considered banning them on my combat sims, given the fact that they provide their user significant advantages over those that wield other C:SI system weapons.
Friends, I could care less about what swords people use, but in this case, the “differences” are so distinct that they corrupt the system and take away from what has made C:SI attractive to many of us: the fact that unlike countless other SL combat systems, winning in C:SI has less to do with technology, with bandwidth with FPS, blah blah, and more to do with how much you practice and how well you apply the lessons you learn from each fight.
Nothing will kill the thrill and excitement experienced in dueling faster than having someone spam kick you to death with an obviously overpowered weapon. Same goes for having ALL your winning counters end without effect. That sucks and takes all the spirit out of competition.
I don’t want to ban any C:SI swords and decided not to ban these weapons for two reasons:
1. Robby – he’s the most responsive of all the developers and acts as if he actually cares about C:SI. I have faith that he’ll take care of this.
2. Us – If the system doesn’t stay somewhat balanced, I’m out of it and I imagine many others will follow.
I still like to spar and invite you to Meiji, but please, don’t draw a Wave or Take against me until they’re fixed. I’d rather not.
Thanx
Ugh… I’m still at work, and not able to devote the time to this conversation that I had hoped to have available today, but I’d like to make a couple of very quick points before heading back to work:
There have always been, and probably always will be, questions about balance. I’ve heard hundreds of various opinions on balance ranging all across the spectrum, and while many complaints don’t have any identifiable cause that I can find in the code, the Wave does in fact have some issues that must be resolved.
I’m still reviewing and testing, and am absolutely determined to do this right so that it benefits the C:SI system as a whole, and I hope to keep existing Wave owners happy in the process.
Please understand that I am tremendously upset by this issue. It has become apparent to me that the testing and measuring methods that I used when developing the Wave were flawed and inaccurate, and that makes me feel quite terrible, because it was never my intention to make the Wave significantly different from other C:SI weapons in any critical way.
I’m not going to rush into making any changes. I want to really deeply understand what’s required to resolve the critical issues in the least disruptive way, and that’s going to require time and effort as well as extensive testing.
Well, the beta wave for the upcoming (still upcoming?) patch was slowed down to archatek speed and is fine. The existing wave is a force multiplyer giving people with sub-par skill the ability to win against stronger opponents. I know for a fact that most wave users using a slower katana would die very fast.
A good fighter with the wave, however is fairly rare, most of the wave users that I have ever seen have simply been using it to compensate for lack of skill and most better fighters use other weapons. A very skilled fighter with the wave though is nearly impossible to beat with a slower katana. I have to switch to ninjaken or something faster to get around the waves increased speed because my sword doesnt respond fast enough to hit the waves 0.1 second counter window consistantly.
That being said, IMO the REAL problem with the current system is kickspam. Kicks are far too powerful, I find that 85%+ of the community just kickspams with the fastest weapon they can find (wave, bd’s etc) because there is so little penalty for kicking, hell a high damage kick can even OOUTDAMAGE a low damage slash, so unless every kick is perfectly slashed you come out with a numeric advantage by doing nothing but kicking. Even if you do perfectly counter kicks with slashes you come out only 10-15% ahead of your opponent. The whole kick mechanic needs an overhaul imho.
Last I checked C:SI was suposed to be about slicing people up with katanas not karate practice. Kickspam basically turns C:SI into DCS and really removes a lot of the depth and complexity of the system as a whole.
I don’t know if Robby can confirm it, but I heard from Rain… who I think talked to Arch.. that they were going to bring kicks back down to where they used to be pre-Spring of 07. I think if they did then this would disappear.
I meant the kick spamming would disappear.
I have a simple thought and it is this. If somebody can complain about something, then they will. Nothing is ever perfect. Each blade has it’s ‘glitches’. A true C:SI artist should know how to attack and defend against each blade. The wave is a bit fast, who cares? The nagi has a killer reach on it’s kick, the duals are weak with their slash…… on and on and on.
Robby is the most responsive and responsible blade maker I know. I love all your blades and each of their special nuances.
Well i want to chim in about the kicks, when i measured that 16hp kick i was very surprised. I alway though kicks were 10hp unblocked, 5hp blocked+ stam.
Only in the last few months i discovered they have been doing more damage then i thought. I to would vote to put kicks to be back to that same damage level.
Would it be possible to actually tell us what the range of damage is for kicks and slashes (11-19 is what i have measured). I cant see how that will spill any dark deep secrets on the implementation of CSI.
So, for now, remember, double slash those kicks, to discourage kick spamming
For all weapons I have checked (I haven’t checked the Blood Drinkers, Musashi duals, or Ninjaken) the damage is:
[EDIT] Oops. Wrote wrong value for kicks at first, it’s fixed now.
lol When writing in the blog window, it’s hard for me to proof read what I write. I also tend to think about a lot in a short amount of time. I can see how what I’m trying to say comes out wrong. SO, if I’m going to try and use Microsoft WORD. I like what Avo had to say. :3
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Kasumi – “You are also confusing excuse making for real concerns about a severely imbalanced weapon.”
Me – No. I’m not. lol Legitimate complaints should be brought to the creators attention in a proper way. NOT by making it public and calling it a “cheap” weapon. I’m ALSO sick of peoples petty excuse making. Cool? lol
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Shiori Carter – “Well, some heated discussions, yay ”
Me – Look what you started?! lol :3
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Domokun – “I honestly considered banning them (Wave katana) on my combat sims”
Me – I think that if you did “ban” a weapon, you’d just have less people. People will just find another place to spar like they always do when people have problems with a sim.
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Robby – “Please understand that I am tremendously upset by this issue.”
Me – SEE?! Now you’ve upset him! lol jk jk
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Lyssa – (insert entire post)
Me – *nods in agreement*
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Shiori – “So, for now, remember, double slash those kicks, to discourage kick spamming”
Me – I agree! >:3
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I hope this is more clear. There was a LOT to read and with a mind that is going a thousand miles and hour and multitasking like a mother, things get lost. XD
My data shows that the speed of the wave may have to do with the return to block and not from the block to slash. Can anyone else describe for me any other unbalanced issues with the Wave?
For the newer users who don’t know me, I started playing C:SI about 2 1/2 years ago. I’ve been away from C:SI for months now due to other obligations. But I still love to spar and to connect with people through the spar. Sparring is a way to communicate and interact without words. It’s like a dance, with one participant trying at all times to be aware of the others’ motions, trying to anticipate each other. This is the why I love C:SI…this is why many so-called oldies love C:SI.
I hate commenting on the Wave because I get angry when i think about it too much. But I don’t say anything because Robby breaks his back for us. He’s a good man…and he doesn’t have to do any of this for us. Any I feel like I’m throwing his hard work in his face when I feel badly about the Wave. Before I go on, this post isn’t about Robby…and it’s not really even about the Wave. It’s about C:SI the game.
Let me first say that I’ve used the Wave a lot. My first sword was the Musashi Black Rose. I got great basic tank training with it while in Oda. But I wound up being drawn to the Ashes blades over time. Along my development as a fighter, I hit many plateaus…walls to further improvement. In one of these periods, I had become too dependent on combos, the type where you can mash multiple buttons together. Somewhere I heard that an early incarnation of the Wave (circa late 2007, early 2008) did not allow this type of button-mashing, so I picked one up. I forced myself to relearn single-strike fighting. I relearned observation, patience, and tanking. I’ve promoted the Wave to many new and old players. And during the H4 and Mono switch-over era, the Wave would often be the only functional blade. So yes, I’m familiar with it.
I wield the Wave as I do any other sword. I know it’s imbalance issues, but I haven’t purposefully tried to use them. Fighting against the Wave is like fighting while bubble-wrapped. I can rarely catch an experienced Wave-user’s timing habits. I do not anticipate well against experienced Wave-users. That’s a feeling I hate. Fighting against Waves does not give me the sense of connection I love about C:SI spars in general. But I still fight against them. And I go in knowing I may lose more. It’s a fact of the C:SI community now.
I want to take a moment to point out that Robby did a hugely stand-up thing here. He said his testing tools were imprecise. He said his judgment of the Wave’s capabilities were wrong. As i said, Robby’s a good man.
So there should be no argument whether the Wave is imbalanced. And i think the tone of this thread reflects that. Why would people want to keep the Wave the way it is then? I can think of two reasons:
1. In the gunfight, the M-16 might trump the Beretta. People like fast. People like to win. People like the Wave because they know it’s different. Who sticks with a crappy underpowered weapon?
2. Lots of current people in the C:SI community do not know what the hell I’m talking about when I speak of connecting with your opponent in the spar. There’s no incentive for balance. Balance allows the ebb and flow of energies between the fighters. The anticipation…the testing of tactics. All in a single spar. I just don’t find that I can enjoy that with the Wave.
Having said all that, I don’t think Robby should change the Wave. He’ll never make everyone happy. He might consider releasing another version…or a toggle between two versions. but that’s a lot of work. He’ll always get complaints because he listens….and everyone knows this. He tries.
Robby, thank you for all you have done. Thank you for your honesty and being genuinely concerned about our enjoyment of your contributions to C:SI. I’m very very sorry if this sounds like I’m bashing. You’re not in an easy position. I hope your LL ban has been all worked out now and that RL is treating you well.
To Shindo, again: Why should it not be brought to everyone’s attention? A few people are glad I let them know because they didn’t want to do C:SI cheaply. And I had brought it to the proper people’e attention in the past, but like I covered before, not all the feedback was accurate. Did you bring it to his attention as a beta tester?
Yoso… no one that knows Robby would bash him and no one is doing that here. I don’t want to speak for him, but my impression is he is depressed over the balance issue itself, and is going to fix it.
The culture of CSI has changed a lot (as in almost upside down on some things), and I agree he won’t make everyone happy because of that. But what if it would make most people happy if there was some secret key combo that led to instant kills? Because that would be stupid is why. There is a vision uniting what all four of the devs do and this issue has led to a change in how people do and see C:SI, but needs to be corrected. I just have not heard a single good reason for not balancing his weapon, just these platitudes with no content. “Can’t make everyone happy,” “people always find something to complain about”, “its the fighter, not the sword.” You can analyze this stuff down to nothing or to the non-reasons they imply. Rain made a great point when he said “I can’t remember the last time people didn’t want bugs fixed.” It truly is baffling to me.
Oh my reasoning for not changing the Wave was a little thin there. Basically Robby will still get complaints. And a third reason why people still use it is because they genuinely have fun with it. Do we take that away? I choose my opponents. I know people that I enjoy sparring with very much. I like sparring with new people. The point is, C:SI’s big enough for them all…without making Robby take a kick in the gut.
Finally, what I think doesn’t even matter. I would bet Robby will do the honorable thing. The thing that C:SI users want him to do. He will do his best to serve the community. And i firmly believe that Robby will try his damnest to make sure that no one has an advantage with his weapons.
I started writing that last bit Kas, before your follow-up post. Frankly, you know how I feel about the Wave. And if you didn’t, i hoped i outlined it above. So, please don’t trivialize my comment. Robby will do what he will do, but he spends a lot of time and energy on it. I understand he feels in the crapper for all of this. The content behind my comment is that whatever Robby does, he will hear more shit about it. That’s guaranteed. That’s what I meant by he can’t make everyone happy. It’s not a BS platitude. It’s a no-win for Robby in the short term
Kick in the gut? You should read Robby’s posts more closely. In his last one, he says, quite clearly, that “the Wave does in fact have some issues that must be resolved.” If the developer acknowledges the sword has “issues,” then why can’t you? Are you all so wedded to the Wave that you don’t want an open discussion? Robby doesn’t need to be defended. No one is attacking him or picking on him. He opened this discussion himself and it’s amusing to see so many trying to shut it down. This irrational defense of the sword only adds to the case that there is something exceptional about it – like it lets people win easier and, therefore, has “issues.”
I acknowledge the problems with the Wave. I helped to identify the presence of a problem initially. I have read closely. Now you read closely. I never defended the sword. I’m imploring everyone to think about Robby. Robby will do what he feels is right. I would bet Robby already feels a gnawing in his gut over the problem with his product. If this thread stopped now, it wouldn’t matter. It’s Robby’s choice in the end.
The really messed up thing is that if this was fixed right away, there wouldn’t be so much of a problem. Probably nobody would have thought about it one way or the other. It’s my fault that it’s taken so long to get around to it, and it’s biting me in the ass for that
The main problem that I have with the wave is that with every other weapon (with exception of the nagi in a good users hands but I wont get into the nagi lol) every attack comes with a moment of weakness that a skilled warrior can exploit. This is true with real sword fighting, if you take an action you also create an opening thus attacks must be made with discression.
With the wave, while it is true that that opportunity still exists, it is extremely difficult to exploit compared to the other weapons. I find that most wave users will “flinch” attack at any action because they know they are well protected from counters or in a lot of cases, they have never actually learned to worry about counters (which is sad). With an archatek vs archatek battle or something however, you will find there is a lot more mind games involved in it because if both people can easily counter each other it becomes much more deep and complex, you must read your opponents patterns and habbits, not fall for fakes and the game becomes much better.
I can still defeat the wave but in reality I think it is missing one of the fundamentals of C:SI by having such a small counter window. I agree with Solace 100% on this one.
GAH! This is like a novel now! lol I’m not even going to read some of it. XD I will respond to this though.
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Kasumi – “To Shindo, again: Why should it not be brought to everyone’s attention?”
Me – Seriously? Are you seriously not getting it Kasumi? Come on now. How many times do I have to say it. I don’t think I make this anymore clear. I don’t think bringing things to peoples attention is wrong. I do think the way it is brought to peoples attention most of the time is. “It’s not what you say but, how you say it.” AGAIN! “It’s not what you say but, how you say it.” Anyone not getting that?
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Here’s an example:
A good way – “Hey (insert name here). Have you ever noticed that the kick on the Wave activates the special? (Obviously it doesn’t.) I think we should let Robby know about this, don’t you think?”
The way that would piss me off – “Hey (insert name)! Dude! The freakin’ Wave is soooo cheap! Anyone that uses it is obviously a noob! Man I’m not going to fight noobs that use the Wave! I think everyone needs to let Robby know his weapon is cheap and demand he change it. ‘Cause you know we’re C:SI. We are what matters!”
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Can you see the difference in handling the situation? I wish I was kidding about the second one but, more often than not, that’s the kind of attitude that I’m seeing in C:SI. YES I DO think people should know if a weapon is flawed. YES I do think if more people brought it to the creators attention, the creator would be more inclined to fix it. NO I don’t think people should be total tools about the weapons and there flaws. Now it’s late and I’m going to bed. I’m sure there will be more fun things to read tomorrow. >:D
I too am heading to bed. Sorry, it was a long day, and it’s going to be hectic tomorrow from the looks of it. Please keep the comments coming, I *will* catch up as soon as possible.
Seems that there’s a little rising tension here, so now’s probably a good time to inject a video:
Like I said, I will catch up here as soon as humanly possible.
Oh! Ok, I do get you. Before it sounded like you were saying no one should day anything except to the dev. But either way I don’t agree with you at all. I’ve actually done both… written these long essays explaining the problem and the wider implications, which you can then most easily capture briefly with a word like cheap. I suppose that does put people on the defensive, but is unfortunately true. And if you are talking about me here, I have done both, usually together. Giving a long explanation to someone, demonstrating it, puting it in context of C:SI since I started, and summing up with the overall effect or consequence being that its cheap. But I also use words like petty when people talk about AOs or flexi parts. Because it is petty, lolz… So I guess I will agree to disagree with you, even though I do kinda see your point. Sorry if the cheap thing hurt your feelings.
ok, i have to disagree with a lot of what was being said about the wave not being exploitable and I do take issue with people making it seem like the wave is the only one that has the false slash to it. The wave is completely exploitable for a counter from slash to block, esp in the hands of someone who is not that experienced. I’ve found that the HOD and the BDs, to mention a few, are even harder to exploit for a counter, but is anyone mentioning those? Trust me, I’ve been countered by enough people using different weapons to say that the wave’s slash to block is not undefeatable. And I am not an unexperienced user of the wave.
Another thing i’d like to mention is about what you’d like to call the “balance” of the wave. All the weapons so far, EXCEPT the wave, have a certain move that takes a little bit more time than certain other moves, but in those weapons, it’s balanced out by a faster move. Does that make sense? For eg, HOD, the the kick is a little slow but the combos are super fast, thus the net effect is 0. Everyone agree? What I think people have a problem with the wave is that all the moves are pretty much equally timed. So it creates an illusion in people’s mind that the wave is a super fast weapon, when in reality it’s not. There’s just no significant time lag between certain moves for you to exploit easily, but it doesn’t mean it’s invinsible. You could name me any move that you think is fast, and i could answer you with a weapon that is faster on that particular move. Seriously, you can call it a cheater weapon because it is easier to learn the timing of the wave since they are all equal, but i think Robby did a great job with it.
And btw the only irrational discussion occurs when people who don’t really use or understand the weapons well jump on the soapbox and start preaching.
I think Robby’s own assessment needs reiterating, even after Domo reiterated it. Robby found that the timing of the Wave is indeed flawed. And that the tools he used to measure those actions in the development of the Wave have since been found to be flawed.
i’m sorry to go into semantics, but he said he had issues about the wave to resolve, yet he can’t find it in the coding nor has anyone been able to point out any identifiable cause. And I am not sure how Robby tested his weapons during development, but he says “apparent”, not conclusive nor defined problems with the way he tested the wave, which he thinks was flawed. That is Robby’s own words. Maybe someone can clarify for me, but did all the dev’s use different tools to measure their weapons?
Greetings,
I think that what a c:si player should carry out isn’t “competition which gets more powerful katana” but “competition which polishes own skill”. And people aren’t the differences in the performance of Katana and think that they should choose Katana by the difference in a design/anime/more.
I don’t say, “All katana should be the same performance”. Because It’s strange funny un-natural joke if naginata and katana are same performances. Therefore, I think it right that performances differ.
But… I think that there must not be katana blamed for the reason of a balance breaker. If there is Katana of the performance which a blacksmith doesn’t mean and a blacksmith desires correction… I think that it should be corrected if a blacksmith desires correction.
If a blacksmith tells people that data is required for correction, Many peoples will cooperate in a blacksmith.
Sabina: Sorry but you are just flat out wrong on that one. I have spent many many hours testing the counter window of the wave and it is significantly faster than any of the archatek katanas, ashes, and somewhat faster than musashi, even the taketori has a much bigger counter window. The beta wave is counterable in a pure reaction speed test, it is like the archatek if you are fast enough on the draw you can land a counter after its slash. Doing the same test vs the normal wave (again for hours ive tested this) I was maybe able to land a counter only 5-10% of the time on pure reaction speed alone compared to 75-85% of the time with the beta wave or archatek katanas. You *can* counter the wave but you must do so based on prediction not reaction, or use a fast weapon like the wave, ninjaken or blood drinkers, other swords simply do not respond fast enough to hit the waves counter window based on pure reaction speed. The wave can be countered with the wave, but not slower weapons, which is, of course the core of the whole issue. It *IS* an imbalanced sword, it *IS* the best sword in C:SI currently as many have pointed out, exactly why it is a problematic weapon.
Really, if the wave is balanced why are people crying about it being nerfed, just use any of the other weapons in the system.. oh wait because people instantly get worse when using the other weapons in the system.. heh
What I had meant was that *most* reports of issues don’t have an identifiable cause. It was kind of the polite way to say that I get far more bogus reports than accurate ones. It’s a fact of life in any kind of software development, Second Life scripting included.
However, there are indeed identifiable causes in the Wave script. There are legitimate bugs that need to be resolved.
I do now know how the other devs have done their testing. For those who didn’t know, I came into C:SI quite some time after the system was developed. I am not one of the original devs, and there’s a lot of history there that I have missed. It may be that I missed out on some great testing tools, too
Krystal, that is exactly what Rain and my demo shows. I kind of already knew straight counters on the Wave were far too hard, but thought I was getting more than I was. Most are actually the block bug. So when I spar a Wave user that is any good, I have to find all my hits elsewhere, either by prediction and reading rhythm like you said, or on the front and end of each exchange, or hope for HUGE mistakes. All a Wave user really needs to do is tank semi-smartly and when in doubt kick spam like you pointed out earlier, and the wins come easy.
Heh I remember when we didn’t have random damage and the health regen on the swords. Very often we’d have a draw with both players dying.
We didn’t really think there were going to be balance issues as much then. XD SL has made things more complicated and so has the play style of our C:SI fighters.
Oooooo.. you are like an oldbie of the oldbies! I want to do an interview for my blog! lol
I second Kas’s excitement about an oldbie oldbie popping up! Also Krystal and Kas, I fully agree about how one must fight against a Wave-wielder. I have decent reaction time, but against a Wave, my predicting and anticipation is much more useful, though still difficult. I’d forgotten all about that. Thanks ladies.
lol, yeah I’m an oldie(sorry I think the form auto filled with my real name
)
[ADMIN EDIT] I edited the previous post for ya.
OK so I’m never around anymore but here is what I think.
Do NOT change anything about the wave until the other devs fix these issues-
The nagis kick range.
The speed vs damage balance of the bloods. They really don’t do that much less damage than a katana.
The speed of the W and S attacks on the Ring, Dragon, etc. Just as fast as the Wave.
And everyone here complaining about the Wave better be complaining about these balance issues as well. If your not then your probably playing favorites.
Anyway back to the lurking…..
O_O! Utayo with a bomb full of WINZ?! Why yes. Yes it is.
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Oh, I only have one feeling and it wasn’t hurt by anyone. If anything, I couldn’t believe that someone thinks whining like a seven year old that didn’t get their way is something someone SHOULD do. Even if it IS an issue that needs to be addressed. If I’m understanding what is being said anyways. Feel free to say that, that’s not what you meant. Please tell me that! lol I’m mean, I just won’t believe it.
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I :3
What the frick? Where’s the rest of my comment?!
Dang it! Oh well, I’ll have to write it later… bbl >:3
Utayo wrote: “And everyone here complaining about the Wave better be complaining about these balance issues as well. If your not then your probably playing favorites.”
IMO, its not that anyone is playing favorites it’s because Robby has opened the door for comments. Most people here are just saying that Robby works hard and is trying to please as many people as he can. I know that if I spent countless hours building something and someone called it “cheap”, I would be emotional about it.
Comments like those above me have been said on the forums since I started 2 years ago. Most developers read the forum without making comments (most of the time). Here we see a developer that actually says things like… “the Wave does in fact have some issues that must be resolved.”
It’s hard to defend the Wave when the developer makes those comments. On a more personal note, with all the posts in the forums about the Nagi, Bloods and Ninjaken I am sad this is the first time someone has been talking about banning a C:SI weapon on a SIM. Whoever said that C:SI has changed over the years is right, it has!
I’m just not sure it has been for the better. Please, someone convince me.
Hello all,
in my eyes the Wave is the best weapon I know. I spar with every weapon, know all katanas well.
If you want to talk about wave you should not forget the issues of the other katanas. Example
Ashes Katana with its special, hit exactly the point, no other katana can do.
Ashes Ninjaken – the kicks are faster than Taketori
Musashi – Dragon, HOD the slashes are the fastest of all, faster than wave slashes,
BD – very fast in block – block to slash fastest of all.
Naginata – 3 step slash and 3 step kick
And now my question to all, if the Wave is a cheater weapon how shall I name the other ones?
My answer is that some people cannot loose. C:SI should be fun and not winning is the most important.
Robby leave it as it is you are a good dev.
bows with great respect
Utayo, I’m not sure if you read all the comments before posting (I don’t blame you if you didn’t since its gotten pretty massive now), but all that *was* talked about. The nagi kick is supposedly going to be fixed in the next update. The BDs I am not sure about but Krystal and I both talked about them. And I am not sure what you are talking about with “The speed of the W and S attacks on the Ring, Dragon, etc. Just as fast as the Wave”. If I understand what you are saying then its demonstratively not true, but I might not be getting you. Are you able to come in world to show me what you are talking about?
Julieanne: “this is the first time someone has been talking about banning a C:SI weapon on a SIM. Whoever said that C:SI has changed over the years is right, it has!
I’m just not sure it has been for the better. Please, someone convince me.”
It was me that said that and I can explain what I meant in world or maybe will on my blog, but its been implicit this whole time. In the past, people would avoid even the appearance of unfairness, and those that didn’t were marginal and generally shunned. Now the exact opposite is true (or its misdirected toward things like shoes and hair). As far as it being the first time someone talked about banning a CSI weapon in the sim, the fact is its long over due. I have been going on and on ad nauseum for a year about the Wave problem and nothing that has been said here in any way that changes or expands upon what I have being saying the week this problem arose in an update process. In RP sims, where fairness is a secondary or tertiary concern, you will usually find a list at the entrance of approved weapons for their sim. The fact an RP sim actually has a standard, when the combat is unessential and shallow compared to C:SI, it seems pretty obvious to me an active self monitoring community with a concern for the integrity of competition would take a similar step. Had it been taken a year ago, Robby may have been alerted to the severity much sooner, instead of it being just me and a couple others saying something. I know he knew about it but I’m under the impression he didn’t know the severity of it, which is unparalleled (meaning these other comparisons show the severity still isn’t being accepted, even the Nagi comparisons). Maybe he could have avoided this sticky situation had someone thought to take that step, has he said earlier.
Shindo: This conversation was essentially over and put to rest 11 comments ago. I am stupid for bothering to look now but I can’t help it. I am really done posting here, but I’ll address what you said before I stop.
“If anything, I couldn’t believe that someone thinks whining like a seven year old that didn’t get their way is something someone SHOULD do. Even if it IS an issue that needs to be addressed.”
I never said someone should whine like a seven year old. What I have said and generally done is give reasoned explanations on the problem and the implied consequences. The implied consequences are obviously what’s bothering you but you will get over it. Three months after a fix no one is going to even remember who depended on Waves and who didn’t, so I would just relax. But notice how we are totally off topic now? And you are using intellectually vacuous ad hominem rhetorical devices because the substance of the issue is decided and its all that’s left? But you can IM me in world and I would be more that thrilled to exchange constructive criticism with you.
Daniel: Your quote: “Hello all,
in my eyes the Wave is the best weapon I know. I spar with every weapon, know all katanas well.” Just defeated your whole argument. Thank you for backing mine up lol. As you and many others have said the wave IS the best. It is the best to the point that most of the community uses it, this is the entire problem at hand.
I have never said the other weapons don’t have issues, but clearly the issues are nowhere near as exploitable as the waves imbalances are or everyone would be using them and not the wave, now..
Ashes Katana: You are a “good” fighter and actually complaining about a special? Since when do good fighters ever get hit with specials ever, let alone use them?
Blood Drinkers: Theyre a fast weapon they are suposed to be fast to block thats their point, their damage is only great when combined with combo attacks, their kicks however are overpowered, I addressed kickspam in an earlier post of mine though.
Ninjaken: The ninjakens first kick is actually very slow, its 2nd combo kick is fast, but ninjaken kickspam can be countered easily by simply jump kicking as the primary slash damage is minimal and the kick is too slow to counter with. Hardly anyone uses the ninjaken and only newbies kickspam with it.
Noobinata: Don’t consider this a valid weapon except vs another nagi, everyone knows it has issues lol, I wont rant on it further.
Musashi? The Dragon and HoD are Archatek. If you are such an experienced fighter you would have your makers right, that kinda destroys your credibility right there. The AD combos on these weapons are fast yes, but their counter window still remains exploitable (unlike the wave) and if your opponent is AD spamming do I really need to explain to you that you simply adjust your response accordingly? This is the foundation of fighting, adapting your play style to your opponents.
Really if you are going to comment try and know what you are talking about first.
Somebody discussed this very issue with me today and I quote him/her/him/her ummm him as saying:What it boils down to is EVERY person who has EVER complained about me using the Wave…when I switched blades for the next spar I STILL beat them. INCLUDING multiple people I turned around and beat with the ^&^%# Bokuto. Who then ‘suggested’ that I kicked or jumped Spammed them…with the Bokuto. THE BOKUTO…. END_RANT
note: the bokuto doesn’t allow kicks
Although this person does not wish to cause “waves” I think they made a valid comment to me so I wanted to share it. Food for though eh. Oh as a sidebar, we both agree that if the developer feels it’s overpowered then we support that too! The point is, it doesn’t matter. A gifted warrior will find a way to use any weapon to the maximum effectiveness possible. Cheers.
oh, good point, i used to say that to many people, especially newbs, pick any sword, it wont matter.
In general, if you can beat someone, you can with any katana vs katana, and vice versa for getting your butt kicked
I have also observed this with others.
I remember my first tournament at Tokugawa (How you spell it nobodies nows
), i lost in the finals to a nagi. I ran back to the dojo and proceded to learn how to use and beat a nagi.
Bum De Bum Bum
Anyways, i think from now on i will spar sword for sword.
Ugh.. here I am again =( I can’t help it!
Lyssa, I am 99% sure of who you are talking about. The problem with that reasoning is I could say the same thing if I used Wave and then switched to one of the others. Its not about the result of the spar at all. Its that one is way overpowered. I am sure people bitch about Wave in the same context as they bitch about a legal AO or a belt someone is wearing or whatever. In a lot of cases it probably doesn’t matter if you are way better than someone, and the thing they are bitching about probably is not a difference maker. But they will accidentally be right if they said the Wave wasn’t fair. That rant just doesn’t have the relevance it appears to.
One other thing. I am not knocking Esprite, Robby Arch or Ayame, but… they are in the best position to know what their swords are *supposed* to do. I don’t think they would argue with me when I saw that they aren’t necessarily the best at determining what they are *actually* doing. They don’t fight as often or obsessively as we do. Arch claimed for 2 and a half years the kick was not the same length as a slash on the Nagi, but it obviously has been since Spring of 07 or so. They thought they were all the same speed before the previous update, but they weren’t. This has always been the trend since I got here. The difficulty they have is who to listen to. There are all sorts of claims made about Arch swords or Musashi or whatever in some of these comments that most of us (I hope) know to be false, but they get the junk with the quality (a point Robby made earlier). A lot of this is hard to tell because the animations create a lot of speed illusion on the other models, but once you learn them they have the same result with each action in the spar itself; and the Wave hasn’t for about a year. Robby is THE authority on how his swords are designed to work, but a lot of us who are honest are the authority on what they are really doing. I feel bad for all of them that they have to try to tell the difference of who’s seeing reality and who isn’t (and who is lying).
Oh.. and if its who I think it is, it wasn’t “EVERY”.
big part of my post was glossed over: Oh as a sidebar, we both agree that if the developer feels it’s overpowered then we support that too!
p.s: the spars in question were not against Kasumi
well thats an obvious fact, if the sword was fixed when the problems identified, there would be no issue. As for peopel complain about aos, etc, why dont we just all make everyones experience the best it can be by sparring with no scripted attachments.
Balanced swords, minimum script time your avi can have, make it skill vs skill only.
Those who complain about the lag, a lot of times there the ones with the high script time avis, and 5 minutes to download all there textures.
Oooo… I have this theory… I’m not sure but it seems to be the case… that lag benefits the weaker fighter. Anyone else notice that?
Robby ban me off this blog please.. ok, seriously leaving now.
Well depends, for me, it causes my screen to stutter, after its over, i am usually either A dead, or B severly wounded
Lag is a skill to be learned and practiced. I only suggest we all do our part to minimize it, as its impossible to irradicate. But i know this is impossible, there arethose that oozze lag in waves when you spar them, and they always will
Okay party people, I think we ALL need to just chillax a bit. Kasumi… I would LOVE to comment on… well your comment but, I hope that you would agree that this whole blog seems to be infected with what I’m going to call Virus-DB (Short for douche bag). So, I will choke down my pride and not respond in my usual D-Bag fashion as I really want to do. >:3 Anyways! This blog could go on and on and on and on and on and on. I think we should do one or two things.
1. Make an area to where we can test and theorize about weapons all day long. Dev’s could be kind to us and supply testing tools that maybe they themselves use? Then maybe we could have a more uniform way of finding out flaws and what not.
2. Get everyone in this blog, stick ‘em in a room and fight it out! Last one standing is King of the D-Bags! lol
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Part of the comment before (which has nothing to do with Kasumi btw) was about the kick power. I noticed that it did 10-15. What if it were say 5-15 points of damage? Wouldn’t that solve some issues? I mean you got the slash doing 10-20 so, it seems that the kick would be 5-15… Just a thought. Maybe people wouldn’t “kick spam” as much? :3
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As far as lag goes, I just remember what the person that taught me how to fight (Aimee) had to say, “You must embrace the lag.” Lag has been used against and for me plenty of times. It’s like nature. It’s unpredictable and is going to happen if you like it or not. I’ve recently lowered my avatars fighting outfit to be as low lag as possible… for the other player. I mean since I’m fighting in first person it doesn’t affect me at all. :p I mean LOW people! No hair! Non primed shoes! Only prims I have is my weapon and blind fold. I’m doing my part to reduce lag. Are you? lol I kinda feel lag-friendly. (Like eco-friendly lol)
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Finishing comments:
Get the sticks out yer butts!
Huggies for everyone!
I <3's you peoples! :3
Shut up and FIGHT!
Why my comment not showing up naos?! lol :p
Fine! I’ll do eet in pieces! Muahaha
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Okay party people, I think we ALL need to just chillax a bit. Kasumi… I would LOVE to comment on… well your comment but, I hope that you would agree that this whole blog seems to be infected with what I’m going to call Virus-DB (Short for douche bag). So, I will choke down my pride and not respond in my usual D-Bag fashion as I really want to do. >:3 Anyways! This blog could go on and on and on and on and on and on. I think we should do one or two things.
1. Make an area to where we can test and theorize about weapons all day long. Dev’s could be kind to us and supply testing tools that maybe they themselves use? Then maybe we could have a more uniform way of finding out flaws and what not.
2. Get everyone in this blog, stick ‘em in a room and fight it out! Last one standing is King of the D-Bags! lol
Part TWO!
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Part of the comment before (which has nothing to do with Kasumi btw) was about the kick power. I noticed that it did 10-15. What if it were say 5-15 points of damage? Wouldn’t that solve some issues? I mean you got the slash doing 10-20 so, it seems that the kick would be 5-15… Just a thought. Maybe people wouldn’t “kick spam” as much? :3
Final part?
———–
As far as lag goes, I just remember what the person that taught me how to fight (Aimee) had to say, “You must embrace the lag.” Lag has been used against and for me plenty of times. It’s like nature. It’s unpredictable and is going to happen if you like it or not. I’ve recently lowered my avatars fighting outfit to be as low lag as possible… for the other player. I mean since I’m fighting in first person it doesn’t affect me at all. :p I mean LOW people! No hair! Non primed shoes! Only prims I have is my weapon and blind fold. I’m doing my part to reduce lag. Are you? lol I kinda feel lag-friendly. (Like eco-friendly lol)
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Finishing comments:
Get the sticks out yer butts!
Huggies for everyone!
I <3's you peoples! :3
Shut up and FIGHT!
…I don’t think the blog likes semi colons! lol
—————————
As far as lag goes, I just remember what the person that taught me how to fight (Aimee) had to say, “You must embrace the lag.” Lag has been used against and for me plenty of times. It’s like nature. It’s unpredictable and is going to happen if you like it or not. I’ve recently lowered my avatars fighting outfit to be as low lag as possible… for the other player. I mean since I’m fighting in first person it doesn’t affect me at all. :p I mean LOW people! No hair! Non primed shoes! Only prims I have is my weapon and blind fold. I’m doing my part to reduce lag. Are you? lol I kinda feel lag-friendly. (Like eco-friendly lol)
Last one! lol
——————
Finishing comments:
Get the sticks out yer butts!
Huggies for everyone!
I <3's you peoples! :3
Shut up and FIGHT!
… doesn’t like less than? lol
———————–
Finishing comments:
Get the sticks out yer butts!
Huggies for everyone!
I heart’s you peoples! :3
Shut up and FIGHT!
A less-than without a space after it might be being considered an attempt to inject html and get rejected, perhaps…
Your right I didn’t have time to read all the posts. If I had that kind of time I’d still be in world fighting. lol.
The point I’m trying to make is last time this happened it was the Take. It went from the number one blade in use to at least the middle of the pack. All of the other balance issues were discussed then as well. The same promises were made. The nagi will be fixed soon etc…. That was quite some time ago. It’s still not fixed! So yeah I won’t by that line again.
It’s unfortunate but a high percentage of the fighters out there are looking for an edge and will by any weapon that gives them one. Whether it’s intentional or not the flaws in the nagi and others make sure they keep selling. Robbie ‘fixed’ the take because he was taking an unbelievable amount of flack over it. And he was rewarded with less business and I still hear people say the take is to fast. 0.0
So right now the Wave is popular and getting the same kind of attention. What’s going to happen if he ‘fixes’ this one? Same thing and it will be a further hit on his products. Meanwhile the other flawed weapons will continue to sell steadily. Kinda fucked up if you ask me. I say Robbie has shown his good faith once let’s ban the nagi this time. >:{
Furthermore most of this complaining is really just people being pissed about loosing. I can beat the Wave…even in the hands of a good fighter. I can beat the nagi and the bloods too. When I loose it’s due to my own mistake not the weapon in my opponents hands. If you insist it’s the weapon just get one for gods sake. And when your opponent uses the wave do so also. I own every damn C:SI blade and I’m pretty sure a lot of you do too. So learn it and use it or even better take the loss as an opportunity to learn. That’s what I do. That’s how I became a good fighter with fighting thousands of matches.
Feh, just leave Robbie be there are bigger issues in C:SI.
eeek! I sowwies! My comments weren’t appearings! lol
I like Utayo! I also have every single weapon. Just saying. :3 Yeah… um… Eat it suckas! lol
weeeeeeelllllllll
I have every unique weapon, so many duplicates 
oh, a radical though, but has anyone considered upgrading all the swords to quicker timing.
Speeding up all the weapons might not be such a great idea. It’s hard enough reacting to the Wave attacks in time. As we have discussed, reactions are made less significant against the Wave and one has to depend more on prediction, or watching for the opponents’ habits. Speeding up all of the weapons would change the way nearly everyone fights.
That may be true, it depends on th speed up. Right now i think some of the weapons are just plan sluggish, and feel old fashioned. Some sort of crispness upgrade would be nice, while still maintaining you ability to slash every slash and kick.
I mean even using a sluggish HOD, i still anticipate and predict, this allows me to slash your stun every time. Opponents habit are exactly what you should be watching for. If you are saying that a weapon allows you to not worry about your opponent because it leaves plenty of room to counter, then that could be an argument that the swords are to slow.
So, the wave is to fast, the ashes are to slow. Maybe some sort of between ground could make the whole system better.
oh to clarify, ahes and arch i find sluggish
Musashi dyn/ronin i find hyper , make me feel like i just drank a gallon of pop
I can counter the Musashis just fine based on reaction alone. The Wave is a bit harder, but do-able. But the ability of the Archs to land a slash attack in time is just fine. The anim may appear slow. I had always thought the slow kicks balanced out a rather quick W-slash slash in the Archs. I do in fact watch for habits all the time. I like anticipation. However, one still has to be able to physically take advantage of the openings one creates based on said recognized habits. Thus reaction time is still crucial.
Also, i’m not saying any sword is sluggish that they make the fighter sit in the open. I prefer the Ring and HoD in fact. I don’t mind their transition times from attack to block and back at all, kick not withstanding. But i’m okay with the kick too. If someone wants to slash me on my slow kick, that’s fine. I’ll try to get em on the counterslash. Please note that my mentioning the Arch kick is not to point it out as something that needs fixing. THe kick doesn’t make it _harder_ for my opponent to kill me.
All this talk about how fast the Wave is and impossible to stay up with, i dont know, i fight almost all Waves, all my opponents, and it just seems normal to me. If i use another Katana, i just feel like i am fighting with a wet blanket. Maybe its my real life Martial Arts experience, but strikes, slashes and kicks are damn fast, nothing like the pushy kicks you will see with a Dragon, or others, in RL its fast, effen fast and you have to just deal with it. I hear everyone saying we need to slow the Wave down, dumb it down is how i see it, why cant everyone just get faster? Slow laggy strikes is not RL. I think the Wave is the best Katana that C:SI has, its real, its balanced between its Slashes and Kicks, doesnt have those lags between the kick and block you will see with others, doesnt have animations that seem to fail, its fast and deadly like a real life Katana. Maybe i am not as good as all of you and need my crutch, but in real life, if i had a Katana, i would slash Effen fast with it and you would not see any lag or glitches, just like the Wave does. Whatever happens I will always support Robby and stand along side of him. Love you all
C:SI is a game that can be rich with lots of mental training involved. Fast isn’t the most important thing and can be detrimental to the game as it has been. We’re not looking for RL fighting. We’re looking to preserve aspects of the game that are getting lost in the push for power and speed. Also, I haven’t heard one person say they don’t support Robby. I think we basically all support Robby and stand along side of him.
I poop in the face of danger! >:3
LOL Shindo. I think that’s an instinctive response. Some people think by dropping a load, anaimals are lighter and run away faster from danger.
Robby did put something in his code to make it lag less and loose hits less. Something about sending a backup signal so that if lag eats the first the second will be there to send the info. One thing that is somewhat true is it does attack smoother. I kind of ignore that since the speed issue on it is so insane, but if all the devs implemented that it would be a system improvement I think, at least assuming this isn’t the reason for the speed difference in the first place.
The only issue I see with all weapons being matched to the wave instead of vice versa is the block bug happens more often the faster the weapon you are using. If they fixed the block bug and the faster speed didn’t bork the internal balance of the actual combat (the balanced relationship between stuns, kicks, slashes and their timing) then I wouldn’t mind that personally. This was mentioned by Yoso a while ago but is kind of a subtle point… with Wave benefiting so much more often off the block problems (I *think* because of its speed), spars with Wave vs Wave often loose a lot of the essential parts of how the system is supposed to work. Risk and reward gets much lower and you end up with these blisteringly fast slash fests… kind of like the hack and slash of other combat systems in SL (though obviously not that bad, lol).
I am under the impression that Ayame is pretty much done with/bored with C:SI, so any innovations might be really slow to take with all 4 devs.
One thing I should have started with at the beginning is that C:SI is truly an amazing system, and all four people that make things for it are incredibly talented and smart people (obviously). Since finding C:SI I have tried other games outside of SL and don’t enjoy them nearly as much. I have a friend’s bf that has a bunch of console systems and the fighting games for those I don’t think are nearly as fun, and those were made by paid professionals and sell for like $50. I hope the fact that people get worked up and passionate about things with their system shows them what a success they all are.
Oh, and I second what Yoso said about the timing difference on some being an illusion based on animations. A lot of people think Arch is slower in countering that Musashi, but the difference really seems to be an animation one. Actually because of the block animations on Ashes, you can see a hit coming really easy because of the large transition the avatar makes from a block to a strike. I can get the exact same hits and counters on Ashes, Arch and Musashi without any kind of speed difference, but on some the animations are just easier to spot. But over time this really won’t make a huge difference as you get used to all of them. Very few people use the old Musashi’s because the timing on jump moves is trickier (but very very doable), but I think if more people used them and people got used to seeing them more you would find the timing is no different than Arch or Ashes. I switch between Arch and Musashi pretty frequently without any serious difference in the hits that are available to me.
So I visited a sim called Fallen Providence. It is a VERY beautiful sim that opened up yesterday. I suggest that EVERYONE go visit it. It’s mainly mats but, the textures are top notch! Go naos!
And so the dust settles on what was once a mighty battlefield… Bodies lay adorn with the blood of the many. Was there really a victory here? Some would say there was but, I disagree. >:3
Sorry guys, I know I should jump in here, but I am SO FRAKKING SICK right now
Soon, I promise.
crappola Robby. Hope you get well soon and that the family is ok. Germs are sneaky buggers!
Hope you get better Robby!
Just an FYI, I think the ranking thing has made playing C:SI a bit less fun. Now hardly anyone wants to fight because they don’t want to derank, myself included. Bad enough I have to worry about my D/K ratio. Whoever came up with the ranking system is E-VILE! :p
I have to agree with Shindo..screw the rankings and have fun.
On another subject…I have a friend who wants a taketori very badly. Is there anywhere she can still get one? I see the kodachi vendors out but no takes.
I cannot understand this. That’s like saying nobody wants to fight because they might lose. It’s a completely alien concept to me.
Obviously, you cannot please everyone with any system, including even the most trivial number presentation: There are people out there so caught up in their win/loss number that they will only fight if they are nearly certain they will win, despite the fact that win/loss numbers are completely meaningless in terms of achievement.
On the other extreme, there are people out there who no longer participate much because there’s really no reward and nothing to strive for without some sort of recognition.
That’s not what he said, though. He said the rankings are more important than the fun, and that with a ranking system in place he cannot have any fun. If you extrapolate from that, you will see that essentially any system which ranks players according to any relative measure whatsoever will destroy the fun as far as he’s concerned.
[ long rant deleted ]
Screw it. I’m too sick to write about this coherently. I’ll try again later.
Aww..Sorry if I upset you Robbie. I just try to not even look at my rank. Heck I don’t fight enough for it to mater much anyway. But even when I fought all the time I tried not to care much. It’s just a personal preference.
When I was coming up, I had a positive record on a particular sim and was kind of proud of it. But then I got a chance to spar with someone who was really good for jours on that sim. Needless to say my record went negative quite a ways that day, but it was one of the best things I ever did. All we did was spar..no lessons…and that few hours catapulted me out of a rut. What would have happened if I’d been to concerned with ranking? Nothing because I never would have fought those matches.
The one thing I did use the old ranking system for was to keep track of how many matches I had every week. That weekly top 100 was great for making sure you were fighting enough.
But yeah about getting my friend a Take. Let me know if this is even a possibility. I saw that you told someone else it might be possible. There is a whole new crop of fighters out there hungry for your blades Robbie! I’ll help you pay upload costs anything you need.
First thing first! 100th comment! Wooooooo! lol
Now that I got that out of my system, let’s move on.
Okay whoaaaa! The ranking thing isn’t that big a deal. I didn’t say I had no fun. I got to pass up certain people on the top 100. I just have to watch my back more because people are killing me when I can’t move and doing other things to raise their score. I don’t like losing. I like it less when I have a constant reminder that everyone can see. Over all, I was just venting at the moment kinda. I didn’t mean to offend and really thought it would have just been another comment overlooked. o.o! Sorry to get you all worked up.
Robby!!! I want the Elo back!!! Most people I talk to like it. It really was interesting to me and a lot of other people. and does help give endless spars month after month some kind of point (other than improving but at a certain point its hard to find people you really improve off). I remember when scores went grid wide and we all kind of griped about that, but eventually the scores were either ignored or put in perspective. Noobs are going to look at the Elo and probably treat it like a literal top 100 list but thats part of what being a noob is. It was SO much better than the brute scores or that other short lived ranking system that seemed to be all about volume and I loved watching the names rise and fall depending on who they were sparring and what the result was. You are helping to make this all more interesting so don’t stop now please! =(
Whoah… Congrats on that, though now I’m really depressed about being behind
While I did take your previous comment to be more negative than you indicate here, you are also the unfortunate recipient of a bunch of pent-up irritation that comes in part from other people who have made essentially the same kinds of comments, often far less politely.
Sorry about that.
It’s still there.
I keep wavering as to whether to leave it publicly listed, or to keep it as an “undocumented feature”. This morning, in my flu-induced fugue, I decided that since it’s not official, it should not appear on the public menu, but since it’s still interesting it should still be available.
How’s that for neurotic?
In the meantime, it’s still available. Just set a bookmark or add it to your favorites, while I figure out what the heck I am doing
Lol, cool… I thought you scrapped it thinking no one wanted it or something.
Kasumi – “Noobs are going to look at the Elo and probably treat it like a literal top 100 list but thats part of what being a noob is.”
Shindo – What kind of noob are we talking about here? The new player type of noob? Or the condescending to show superiority type?
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Robby – “While I did take your previous comment to be more negative than you indicate here, you are also the unfortunate recipient of a bunch of pent-up irritation that comes in part from other people who have made essentially the same kinds of comments, often far less politely.”
Shindo – That’s cool. I don’t have problems with good people needing to vent. People do it all the time in RL.
In this case I meant new players, not the latent type, but applies to both I guess.
Since I have supported Robby in the past and still do, I have finally decided to finally throw in my two cents to this debate. Reading the posts above (Thank God I’m using to reading a lot) I’m glad to see there is no one attacking Robby about the Wave. A nod to the community. There seems to be Camp Shindo (lawls!) and Camp Kasumi(lawls, again). Kasumi seems to have a geniune concern over the Wave while Shindo, and I quote, wants everyone to “Shut up and fight!” lol. Big up to both samurai for being so forthright.
I do have to agree with Kasumi that the Wave is faster than most of the regular katanas on the market. I can definitely see why some samurai consider it an ‘unfair’ blade. For me, this is not a problem because of two reasons.
1)I honestly think the community needs to give Robby a break on his first katana made for the system. He is the only one still in Second Life doing cool stuff for the samurai(Yay!for the Top 100 system!). I’m surprised he is still here after how the Lindens treated him.
2)When I was introduced to Combat Samurai Island, I had the good fortune to have Aimee Congrejo as my teacher. Anyone who knows/knew Aimee knows how carefree she was about C:SI and she passed her carefree attitude from herself to me. It’s a game designed for fun and socialization. If C:SI is working on you so much, leave SL.
Also, I feel Robby is getting picked on because of the comments I have heard about the Taketori too. Kick-spamming? I have the answer for a ‘kick spammer’: Slash-spamming. The Taketori doesn’t even auto-combo so please stop the talk about ‘banning’ the Wave and the Taketori. Hell, Let’s ban every sword that someone has a problem with. This is what sociologists call a ‘moral panic’.
This is what sociologists call a ‘moral panic’. This ‘witchhunt’ should have gone down when the Wave and Taketori were first introduced and not when a fresh new fighter, who uses the Wave, appears and consistently beats most samurai.
Alexander the Great adopted from his enemies for future battles. You can do the same. The art of war is never static. Straight Razor.
Straight! Thanks for reading before posting! Here I go again!
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1. I am not sure why people assume talking about the severity of the balance problem on a blog post in which he specifically requested comments is somehow being mean to Robby or not supporting him (I know you are not saying this Straight but its implied in a lot of the comments). It feels like everyone is treating him like a special needs child or something. I’m not going to claim I know him better than most people because I really don’t, but my impression of him from SL and what he has mentioned about his RL tells me he is a grown man with a varied life, is smart and education, raised a family, and has an uncommonly level head about things. I don’t understand why people feel the need to tiptoe around him or suggest that he not fix his weapons because it might cause an unpleasant emotion for him. Are you on suicide watch right now Robby? Is there something I should know?!
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2. There is also this assumption that Robby shares the same attitudes about the wave and balance as some of his biggest “supporters”. I hope I am not talking out of school with this, but Robby first got involved in C:SI during the bamboo forest and early Shrouded days. Everyone I still talk to that was around for that period is appalled by the speed difference and its acceptance. When I have talked to Robby, my STRONG impression is his biggest concern is that he left a C:SI sword out there with such a serious problem for so long, and that because it has been out there so long he’s worried when he does the fix he considers essential (because it is) that a large section of the C:SI population won’t understand why it was essential (hence my commenting on his blog at all in the first place and the constant reasoning away of nonissues and nonreasons… I have said nothing new but keep commenting so people get it when he does the inevitable). I am also under the strong impression that he is NOT upset that valid and important criticisms have been brought to his attention.
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3. Lets say you could go back in time one year and offer Robby the following choices:
A. You can have the most used sword in C:SI, but it will be far too fast and people will defend its use at the expense of no longer caring about balance in C:SI, or
B. You can get the timing just right or close to right, while still being very smooth, and you won’t have a large number of people arguing against balance to “support” you.
Which one would he pick? It would be B, and he has all but said so in the few comments he has left here.
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4. The Taketori is harder to talk about than the wave, and that is the only reason I have only been talking about the wave. There are also problems with the Taketori. The kick is a tad faster than other kicks (nothing like the Wave difference but its there), and it tends you push more up than out, making it impossible to block or counter, so people get freebie hits after a lot of the Taketori kicks. Part of it is the animation is a tad tough to read, but don’t think thats such a big deal (it is a factor I think so I’m mentioning it, but not something I think needs to be changed at all). While its hard to pin down exactly why its problematic compared to the wave, Robby did say something to the effect that the code is a “mess”. I would assume there are no wave or take vendors out right now because he thinks *both* of them need attention (or its left over from his LL troubles). But my point is that when you imply that you just need to respond in kind with slashes doesn’t work because over time the kicks spams will win out on the damage spread more than they should for the reasons I stated. Do you really think I would talk about kick spams as if no counter exists if it wasn’t a real balance issue?
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5. Regarding banning weapons… like I said earlier, if RP communities can have a standard for weapons, then I would hope C:SI could too. And the only talk I’ve heard about banning is Domo in his sims (and maybe not all of them) ONLY IF a fix is slow in coming, and by some people running tournaments based on what has been talked about on this blog. Actually the tournaments to come at Fallen Province are going to be run by two people who were around for early Shrouded when balance issues like this did not exist, and have commented to me without any solicitation that its shocking and obvious to them. It has nothing to do with moral panic… if anything its a rediscovery of an old C:SI value or filling of a moral vacuum (that language is excessive but point is its the opposite).
6. You said this issue should have been brought up when it first appeared. This is the reason I probably sound so testy, because I have been going on, and on, and on, and on for an entire year. In fact I know you know this, because when I joined Yakuza a while ago I was told to not talk about weapons problems while a teacher there, and I’m pretty sure you were in the room when I said “yah sure” (might also want to consider what a large clan with an indifferent attitude toward something as central as balance has on C:SI and this issue’s going unresolved so long). But it started with an IM to Robby days before the beta period was over. After a long time with no fix, it led to me and others trying to point out the issue to users instead, which in most cases they refused to acknowledge it or made excuses for why its ok. People would not have used Wave at this time three years ago and we all would have been trying to alert Robby to the issue (were he a dev at that time). I have been pissy about it because I came up in CSI with a different standard that has been lost and its not something I am ever going to compromise, no matter how many new clans pop up by people no one has ever heard of or how many core values people want to ignore. I have tried to leave C:SI before, and I can name 5 oldbies that have also left CSI because of either the wave issue or its wide spread acceptance, so a lot of great, experienced and smart people have already taken your advice about leaving. Alyssa is now back and its the very first thing she commented on. It was like listening to myself, only less wordy and more blunt. In fact anyone from pre-spring 2007 that I can think of also sees the problem. And Robby is one of those pre-spring 2007 people.
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I realize there are people feeling touchy and angry about this and about some of the things I and others have said. In fact those same people should be REALLY pissed at me because it was Rain and I that found a way to demonstrate the dramatic nature of the problem to him, leading him to not only see it with total clarity but also to push it to the front of his agenda. So when Robby does fix it, you all can blame me… in fact I would love it if I were used as the complaint department after the fix instead of Robby having to deal with complaints about doing what’s right.
Utayo: “When I was coming up, I had a positive record on a particular sim and was kind of proud of it. But then I got a chance to spar with someone who was really good for jours on that sim. Needless to say my record went negative quite a ways that day, but it was one of the best things I ever did. All we did was spar..no lessons…and that few hours catapulted me out of a rut. What would have happened if I’d been to concerned with ranking? Nothing because I never would have fought those matches.”
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This exact thing happened with me with Alyssa Moxing. When I started C:SI a lot of the community had gone through a period of rampant cheating before some security measures were taken. As a result, anyone who was good would have doubt cast on them. Alyssa was by far the best in C:SI. She used to stand around in C:SI wanting to spar and hardly anyone would. I took on this attitude at first too, until I got to know her and started to learn from her. She was just amazing at C:SI, and I benefited so much by getting together with her each day to spar and ask her questions. As I started to get better I realized people could start trashing me too, so I took the attitude that I would always help people to understand what I’m doing in a spar to not only help them see that they can do the same thing, but to help them get better too and not let their frustration turn into trash talk about me. And ever since I emphasized to people I taught how to be open to why they are losing and not locate it in silly things that don’t matter or delusions and negative assumptions about people (like I did when I was new). When Alyssa and I made Tendai, we had 5 core students at the time, most of whom I taught, and all 5 I kept pushing this home if they started veering off into that territory. So what you are saying is very true and very old knowledge. Unfortunately, it only applies if the reasons people assume they are having trouble with someone actually are silly. With the wave the problem is very real and legit. That attitude is great but only is true if supported by a balanced system. If there is a kat this out of whack, its just no longer true in this specific instance.
lol Straight. You’re funny. XD I does not has no camp. :3 (I love double negatives. :p)
Yay for two cents! lol
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Kasumi.
1.) Remember when I was talking about the whole “It’s not what you say but, how you say it” thing? Well, this is why that’s important. The “supporters” see some of the comments made about the Wave to be an attack more than helpful criticism. It’s one thing to point out a flaw in something. It’s another when people have poor taste about doing it. I don’t think there is one weapon that no one will complain about. Take the Nagi for instance. When I started playing people were causing such a stir about it. It was ridiculous really. But, then a former friend and I tested it out and noticed that the Nagi’s Kick was longer than our slashes. I mentioned it in the forums once and Robby did a test with it. He noticed that the kick was longer than any slash he tested with. That “bug” has never been dealt with either. In fact I heard something about people thinking that the Naginata is fine and should be accepted by people. Whatever. As far as banning weapons, who cares? Ban them. People will just go to other places to fight where it’s not banned. I think there should be a place that bans them. That way the people that want them banned can go to that sim and not have to fight people that use weapons like the Nagi or Wave.
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I had more to say but, I don’t think it would matter really. I did keep a copy of it though. lol
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One thing I do wanna mention though. C:SI isn’t like Electronic Arts, Bungie or some other big time game company. They don’t have this big staff to deal with issues people bring up. Remember that this is also, more of a hobby than anything for some of them, you may never see a perfectly balanced or bug less weapon.
I’m like a bad lightbulb… I’m out! :3
This will probably be my last post. I generally do not blog because my temper is very short. Being a southern boy I have a rule to only say something to people in blog (and in SL) that I would say straight to their face in RL. I do feel I have to retort to Kasumi’s last post.
One, thanks Kasumi for not being the typical poster (post person?) I have been exposed to on blogging (I even hate the term). I do love how you back up your statements with data and I for one do not think you are ‘attacking’ Robby. You sort of remind me of Prokofy Neva because of the very looong explanations of the issues at hand. I’m just very thankful you are not the total jackass this person is.
Two, a special needs person? No. Only a fellow scripter (I shutter to even imply I’m in the same league as Robby) can really appreciate the work it takes to bug hunt and please the people you are working for. Out of the four sword makers, yes I do feel Robby’s has gotten more than his share of bitching (not good criticism) about his products and I wanted to show love and support. I’m fact, I do agree with you that the Wave needs tweaking as I stated in my first post. I’m sure Robby will not kill himself over that.
As for the Taketori (My main sword and proudly so), Robby probably has his vendors out of world because he is still pissed at the Lindens for treating him so poorly. As for the damage spread out over time, we can grab two Taketori (or Taketoris…0.o), I’ll kick you as fast as I can and you slash me as fast as you can. I’m pretty sure you would be the one left standing.
I have already commented about the ban issue so I will not here. Like I said Kasumi, I do thank you for being an honest and factual blogger. There only one issue I have in your post. Yakuza is my clan. Period. Please never question why I am in Yakuza. In fact my only sore point about you was your time in my clan. But that is in the past. Every clan has its good points and bad points but Yakuza has something the other clans do not. My loyalty. Please do not question it.
Eeep… well I didn’t quite mean the Yakuza comment like that. There are a lot of very awesome people in that clan, like you, masmako and others. I meant it in a general kind of way, like big picture C:SI and the way mini institutions effect the over arching one, not that *you* should give any thought to being in the clan you are in. My experience in it wasn’t great but I’m particular about what a clan should be like so don’t do well under other people’s stuff.
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And in terms of testing Taketori kicking, I would have to use an ashes, arch or musashi to see isolate what makes it different, like how you can’t test wave vs wave to find the speed difference. In all honesty I am not clear on what makes Taketori so weird. I just know I get this question lately more than any other: “what do I do vs a Taketori user that spams kicks?” And I don’t have a good answer when they ask about this sword specifically.
OK. So much to address. Please take nothing here personally.
1. I don’t think that anyone is tip toeing around Robbie. I’m irritated that, because he is the only one who listens, people think he should fix his bugs and mean while the other developers have been selling the same bug ridden blades since forever. Are people considering bani g their weapons…no of course not. I get the feeling people are taking advantage of Robbie because he listens and in the past has changed a blade under pressure from the community at large.
2. All of the old timers, most of which do not fight anymore, say the wave is fast. Umm..big deal..they don’t fight..the game has developed and moved on past them. That happens when you take an extended vacation from a game. Stop complaining and catch up or forget about it and go home. C:SI will never be what it was in those early days again. BTW I’ve only really seen 3 or 4 people complaining all of them Arches or Musashi users. Sounds like the whole Take mess again. Anyway it’s hardly a consensus.
Also of course Robbie is going to talk nice with you when you complain. In case you haven’t noticed he’s not the confrontational sort. And yes he may agree that there are issues, but are they as big a deal as some say they are? I’d say probably not. I’m not sure what Robbie really thinks.
3. Or option C..Do it the way he already did it and not worry about it.
4. Can we just leave the Taketori alone. It’s kick are not to fast. It’s all timing. Judo creams kickers constantly. The secret is a key element of C:SI…timing. Besides the constant negative propaganda war waged against this blade already won. It was changed.
5. Banning weapons is stupid unless there is a very serious issue with them. I’ve run several DCS RP sims and I can tell you that two C:SI weapons would be banned on them…and no they are not the take and the wave. The Bloods would be banned due to the animations being to deceptive and fast and the Nagi due to the fact that it has a longer range that the other weapons. C:SI is to small a community to start limiting where people can fight based on weapon of choice. We have not banned the nagi yet so why start now?
So finally I’d like to say it again. There are a lot of phrases like “impossible to block” being thrown around here. Phrases like this are patently untrue. There are people that can beat me with my take or with a wave using any of the other blades available. I can beat Take and Wave users with out matching their weapons. Using the word impossible here is all spin designed to try to sway the masses. Hey and why not do it, it worked on the Take. I think what we have here is a very vocal minority trying to, once again, impose their will on the greater C:SI community.
go utayo! I CONCUR! agree 100% with everything you have said! And you know what, if Aimee were still active… she’d just tell all of you to … LOLZ STFU! <3
No problem Kasumi. (Yes, I lied about that being my last post.) I’m also writing some papers atm so I’m a writing mode. Even though Shindo as made me laugh more than once to the point of tears, I do consider myself a member of Camp Kasumi. I just respectfully diagree about the Taketori.
P. S. I did forgot from the beginning to comment on Yoso’s most elegent post. It was truly enlightening. If you have not read it, read it.
” I think what we have here is a very vocal minority trying to, once again, impose their will on the greater C:SI community.”
So true.
Utayo, I would really like to meet up with you in world so I can demonstrate all this to you. In fact anyone that doubts what I’ve been saying is welcome to as well.
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1.I am not sure which bugs you are referring to, but this is not a quirky bug, but a sword that is very overpowered my being drastically faster. Its a timing problem, not a bug. And people did reach out to Esprite about the Ninjaken kick which he then fixed. People have tried to tell arch about the nagi kick and he simply blew them off until (I think) Robby tried it for himself and reported it to him. And Ayame has never been responsive to feedback but there is nothing going on with her stuff other than its hard to jump slash with them.
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2.I am not sure why you say the “old timers” don’t fight anymore. The people I am talking about do fight, or the ones that left fought up until they left. I promise you the “game has not moved past me”, which I can also prove to you with some spars.
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3.Options A is exactly what happened, which is the whole point.
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4.I can prove to you there is a small speed difference too if you want to meet up with me. I will let Robby explain if there are identifiable issues, but when I talked to him he implied like there were scripting problems. And with “It’s kick are not to fast. It’s all timing”, I have not had someone explain the importance of timing to me in many years. Doesn’t that give you some pause? And last time I talked to her (she has been gone for a long time btw), she thought the wave was way too fast too.
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5.There is a serious issue with them so its not stupid. Again thats the whole point. And again I can prove this to you if you will let me. And the RP analogy was only an analogy when people thought the concept of disallowing some weapons was extreme. We have people counting ARC and complaining about how many prims the sheaths are while wearing a Wave katana. If people can make goofy rules about things that aren’t difference makers then there is no reason to make some about things that are.
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6.I can prove to you that although its not impossible, its nearly 10 times less likely to get a clear counter. Its better if you just come see what I’m talking about but I will describe how to prove it. Have one person who is very good at reaction use an arch or musashi. Then have someone use a wave while wearing a HUD visible to the other user. The wave user then slashes the arch/musashi user’s blog, while the arch/msuashi user counters. Then repeat this but have the wave user switch to musashi or arch so that you are both using it. This is what happens when I do this with Rain; 1) I get 100% of my counters when he uses a musashi or Arch, 2) I get blocked 50% of the time when he uses Wave, and 3) the 30-40% thats left look like good counters but are bugs. 100% to 10%. Krystal also replicated this, and when we showed Robby he said in world and on his blog about 4 times now that its absolutely necessary (scroll up). And “I can beat Take and Wave users with out matching their weapons” was addressed, its a red herring and doesn’t say anything about balance. Last time we sparred I’m pretty sure I beat you with your Taketori too.
“2. All of the old timers, most of which do not fight anymore, say the wave is fast. Umm..big deal..they don’t fight..the game has developed and moved on past them. ”
Actually i know a few old timers who dont agree with what going on at all.. I think a lot of people are just watching, as they have seen this happen before.
Volk: Well when I say oldbie I am talking about people who became good at CSI by early 07 when the culture was different and some of the stuff we are talking about didn’t exist. But you should try an experiment. Ask this person if they remember when the devs used to insist there was no speed difference prior to that fall, and that our insisting there was led to balancing the speed on all weapons in an update. Ask this person what happened when we pointed out a problem with the block getting knocked off and if they fixed that in an update too. Ask if they remember what happened when Ninjaken’s kick was overpowered and if Esprite fixed it or not. Or ask if this person remembers in bamboo how there was some fluky period where arches were not stunning, and if everyone went out and bought one or if we all refused to use it. So maybe they have seen this before
Actually, i know several older people reserved on the subject.. For someone slightly newer to the community i have had the advantage of becoming friends with many, many of the older fighters.. Which most of you prob know already.
Sure though, i wil ask around,.. And yes, i have heard about a few sword glitches over time and those who used them.
I wonder if i’m an oldbie or just some disgruntled has-been who’s past his prime in SL years?
I just read some of Kas’s and Razor’s comments for the first time tonight. I agree clan-bashing is unwarranted.
Secondly, I got the opportunity to spar against Alyssa’s alt weilding a Wave. It was disasaterous with my Archs. I had to use the Wave myself just to prolong the agony. The only times I ever won against Alyssa with her Wave was when I had my Wave. I never won against Alyssa’s Wave with anything else. And I need to qualify this by saying I sparred Alyssa on her second day back in C:SI after about a year. I’m sure I’d be completely smoked if we mixed it up now.
You are a twilight oldbie, lol. My definition is actually really restricted.. its anyone around for the early period that kinda ended mid 07, before the Tokugawa stuff. I still consider people that started CSI a month or two before me these ancient people when at this point one month is nothing.
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And yeah… Alyssa is going to be tops again in a few weeks. Its gonna be fun to watch.
I don’t need to test with you Kasumi. I’ve fought a few matches myself you know. And I’ll say it again there are fighters that can counter the Take kick almost every time. If Judo is still around watch her she does this very well. And come on you tested with Rain?! The guy stands around and calls all the new C:SI people jumping monkeys in open chat. Your really going to have to look for a better test partner if you want credibility. A test conducted by two obviously biased individuals isn’t worth anything.
I’d argue you get 100% of your counters with the other swords because they are what you use all the time. You have thousands of matches using those weapons and know the timing of them intimately. Of course you can block them easily. Talk about a “red herring’ your ability to do something or not doesn’t mean there is a balance issue.
I’m going to sum up my feelings about this and bow out. Once again a sword other than a Musashi or Arches has become popular and the Musashi and Arches users are having a fit. It’s the same thing they did with the Taketori. It’s not what they are used to so they say it’s unbalanced. All the time they ignore the flaws of other less popular weapons made by less responsive devs. They don’t complain about the nagi to it’s developer because he doesn’t respond. And hey forget about the fact that people have learned to beat the nagi but fighting instead of complaining. Complaining is oh so much easier when you have someones ear.
I look out there and see many many people using the wave and only a few complaining. I can’t help but think that these few are trying to get bully the community into making all the swords as close to their comfort zone as possible. I urge Robbie to change nothing and I will point out that changing the Take accomplished nothing. They still hate it! They still complain about it! They wont be happy till it’s just like an Arches or a Musashi! And to top it off the people who do like it hate the changes. Yay what a bonus. Do yourself a favor Robbie leave the Wave as is. It has far more fans than detractors.
Have fun everyone and spar as much as you can no mater what your opponent is using!
Twilight oldbie…i can live with that.
The Wave was and always has been intended by the developer to be comparable to the other sword makes. Robby is rectifying something that even he wishes he had addressed a long time ago. I’m not sure why there is continued discussion when the Wave was never intended to do what it can actually do.
Utayo, please go back and read the comments that came before where you started posting. You keep covering old ground and the Wave issue was actually dead like 30 comments ago. Its now just about subtleties. And you and I can do this test, not Rain and I. I am biased in that there is an actual *object* and obvious *fact* of the matter which again I can actually show you if you are actually interested.
Well I hope he changes it the bare minimum. Cause the Taketori was changed to much and your all still complaining. I really hope those complaining the most are in touch with the other devs too. The other weapons all have bugs that give them advanatages. But you know what? I know they aren’t. Which is pretty telling if you ask me…..
Yes, that’s exactly the goal. I am interested in fixing problems, not changing how it works, so I will only change what’s absolutely necessary.
I think people need to be careful not to jump on a band wagon until they are sure they know what they are attacking. Last week while I was sparing, I had the wave sheath on my hip and the oxide sheath on my hud. It was in fact the oxide katana that I was using to spar. Somebody approached me and implied that I was winning because I was using a “cheater” blade. I think it is to funny that a person would jump to a conclusion without even checking to see what the actual blade in use is. My point here is, some people, no matter the facts, will still see unfair advantage where “sometimes” there is none.
<3
Have been following all Daikon blogs and this one also but just thought finally to post a comment. Have above all said and done and is all good….I just want to say that I do miss the old Edo times. I miss the time where people will not even spar you if your attire is not oppropriate and your manner is either justified as Samurai or Ninja. We had a sense of CSI community at least in my head and know who we are in terms of Samurai or Ninja. Nowadays is all about katana sparring and which weapon is better or less than other one and sadly people flock to it when they found a weapon that they think is better. Sure there was a time when people didn’t know to report a bug and some took advanatge of the glitch and exploit it to the max and use it to their style and sparring, but after the bug or glitch is reported those people have no face to be around and hence alts everywhere. I just feel that katana speed if as long as not too much off the standard shouldn’t be a factor of win or lose and shouldn’t be a big issue, it is how we use it that makes us winner or loser. I miss the Ninja clans…..where they are attested and rival to Samurai and as a CSI community…. not all this my Wave is better or worse than your current using weapon etc talks.
Dang, this just goes on forewer.
I dont see the point really, everything said now is just repetition.
And yes, i am on the kasumi wagon. :p
What i dont get is why all this complaining, when its been proven and acnowlaged by so many ppl here, not to mention the maker of the sword in question. Most of waht is being said here is either attacks or sorta attacks on the ppl tying to tell what is wrong. THat even Robby say, pretty clearly, yes there is something wrong that neads to be fixed” if its all about timing and the fighter and all that … why not roll with it, if its all about your timing and skill, it wont matter if the swords are made more even, does it? All you nead to do is adjust your timing a little and you should be just as good as with the old wave,, right? To me this all sounds like panic nerves, “dont tuch my wave” (or take) strangest thing. huh.
I dont think i have seen anyone here denying the fact that there is a big diference on the wave and all the other swords. And thouse trying to make it sound like a denial, is just twisting points.
As for credebility of thesters, yes kas and rain can be a bit abrupt, but DAMN they think things through. Robby as a tester, i guess thats not good anough either. And not to mention that all theese tests and comparrisons can, and should be done by anyone that wants a word in this discussion. or it will all boil down to i like, i dont, i dont like you so it must be wrong, and dont mess with me, i like my stuff like this, even if its using a unrivaled advantage.
Complaining about nagi, bloods, and why not ninjaken….. dang ppl. how many of you fight a nagi every day. and if you do, what you fight it with. Bloods, in a week i can count on one hand how many use it that i see. not to mention the ninjaken. Wich btw is the ONLY sword that has a non counterable slash..
Anyway, done now. hope the update(S) (yes i hope the take gets a good shakedown too) come soon, and id love to see the diference on wave ppl before and after the update.
A great thanx to robby for being so active and responsive in this system and comunity. It is good work, even if it neads adjustment.
and sorry for any typoes, read around them. :p
Okay lots of people been telling me to Throw a comment or two in here
but basiclly C;si is all about fun and enjoying JUr Time nomatter what the opponent is using and aslong as am having fun am alright And If thers a chalange then for sure Ill Try n Cooprate with it, I havnt realised ny mistakes with the wave, faught lots of peopel with the wave alright 
^^ But i never TOld them Heey change ur blade cause i heard people saying that its “Buggd” 
Might be my 250+ ping that affects it but am glad i didnt feel the diffrence, and about fighting styles i quote someone who said that Ur fighting style is ur own Dance SO Dance and enjoy it N Have fun 
lol Thats my oppinion if you care for listning to It ~.^ n am not dead yet ^^
1. Straight… Did you call me a bad donkey name?! O_O! I’m sadface if you did! lol Nah not really. :p
2. You know what I noticed breezing through the comments again? This is more like clans verse other clans debate. Yeah that’s right. Go figure! I’m betting that this isn’t about balance issues anymore. It’s a pissing contest! This can be settled in only one way…
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A TOURNAMENT! >:D
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Maybe.. King of the Hill style? Since people seem to think they are better than others or feel the need to kick a pedestal from underneath people!
3. I’m AWESOME! MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA SUCKAS!
Ratatosken said,”id love to see the difference on wave ppl before and after the update.”
Before you go celebrating remember changing the performance of the Wave will throw the fighters off. There will be an adjustment period then some if not many of those fighters will be just as deadly as they were before.
Kas – I never really denied that the Wave might be faster that other swords. I just said Robbie shouldn’t fix anything unless the other devs fix the bugs in their weapons. When he ‘fixed’ the take all he did was decrease it’s popularity. Of course people said the other devs were going to fix bugs too. But they never did and I believe they never will. Hell the nagis biggest selling point is the kick bug. I doubt it will ever get fixed.
But you know what this all hardly maters. The Take got changed and I still kept right on killing people with it. Took a week or so to adjust to the change but it really didn’t slow me down. I was still a good fighter and I was still beating other good fighters. And I didn’t do this, But many just kept using the 1.0.6 Take anyway. So the fix only effected new Take users or those who decided to use the new blade anyway. I imagine the same thing will happen with the Wave.
I did notice you ignored most of my other points in the past few posts. It’s easier to just tell me to read back….an attempt to discredit me I think….even though many things I have said were not previously said or I added to what had already been said.
Shrugs and goes back to work.
wait a min here…
ratatosken… are you implying that the other weapons shouldn’t be fixed ie the bloods the nagi and the ninjaken, because PEOPLE DOESN’T USE THEM THAT OFTEN???? what kind of logic is that??? THAT IS JUST SO ILLOGICAL! i’m sorry but i have to say it… it’s kind of stupid. Don’t you know that there are people around who use the nagi or the ninjaken almost exclusively??
and yes it is complaining, how could it not be when people, such as the person in lyssa’s comment, COMPLAINS about your wins because she thinks you’re using the wave? and she’s not the only one, the majority of the people who complain about the wave are on the losing side of a match against a wave. This isn’t to say that a couple (yes, only a couple) people don’t have valid points, but yet again, a couple people who defend that wave also have valid points. Don’t get me wrong on that.
And you know what, I would like Kasumi to prove to me personally, because I still can see people countering me esp the HOD auto combos. Which btw I don’t like, but you know what a friend said to me once… and he’s also a wave “hater”. lol. he said, and i paraphrase… if a bug gives you an advantage, it’s not a bug. And he does this nifty little trick he has with the HOD that gives damage through your block (sometimes) when doing a combo. So i just deal with his auto combos and all.
I guess my final point is that we shouldn’t be so split in the community as Camp Shindo and Camp Kasumi. What are we, congress??
umm, no noob, that where not writen or implied that they should not be ficed, uh, and where did you get anything about ninjaken being fixed.
I had to read again to see where you got this from. lol
My point where maybe more, as it is a matter of timing, why not just adjust to the new timing on a sword that is equal to other swords but still with its own feal, like other swords and live with it.
Oh, and i use the ninjaken, not exclusively, but extencively.
And no, im not implying that wave users will suck after the update, but i do expect to see some style change, again, is that bad?
as for wagons and camps, that happend pretty fast in the thread didnt it?
Anywayu, i got nothing more to say, its all been said before, and i think the work is well under way, so i will just sit back and wait for the update so i can unpack my wave again.
Why won’t this… thread? DIE! Die e-vile thread DIE! lol
Oh and where’s my bribe money?! >:3
But I gave y’all two new threads
I’ve got a pretty good idea of the range of opinions here, and a what I think is a pretty good plan of action. I am going to make some time this weekend to try to test an idea that I hope will provide the minimum amount of impact necessary to bring the Wave into compliance.
While I’m at it, I’d like to resolve a couple of issues with the Wave that have bothered me for quite a while, but don’t have any impact on combat. Should be an interesting weekend
The Wave is the most responsive weapon EVA! >:3
Don’t change anything. People baaaaawwww about imbalances in the weapons all the time. The problem is they are crying for the lack of adaption to tactics and skill.
When it comes to CSI I’m not too shabby. I’ve used most weapons and I can say for sure I can be beaten wielding nagi or wave without a problem. I’ve been beaten fairly and I’ve also been beaten by people who use actual cheats such as spacebarring… Cough.. My point there is the kick problem is not a coding issue, but merely a user use problem. If a player is using “Cheeze tactics” it’s obvious he/she has an advantage if you don’t know how to counter it. Don’t forget you can also NOT fight whomever is doing that.
I lol’d @ Domo. Go ahead and try to coerce change. That always works well.
So the new bawww is Wave kicks? Before it was Nagi kicks/range, before that it was Jump Attacks, and before that it was specials… I must say this discussion has moved me. I will now only kick with wave katana.
Robby, your weapons are amazing weapons to be capable of so much in this Fisher Price of a game engine. Don’t let a couple of crybabies influence change that is surely not needed.
I lol’d @ “The problem is they are crying for the lack of adaption to tactics and skill.
When it comes to CSI I’m not too shabby.”
Cool story bro.
“BAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAW”
If you want to play the troll game that is fine with me.
Let’s not
It seems like the discussion has pretty much run it’s course, and there is certainly a lot here for me to consider. I’ve got what I think is a pretty reasonable and complete grasp of the issues, and what I can and/or should do about them.
I think it’s time to retire the thread. I’d like to thank everyone for their input, it is very much appreciated.
I’ll be working on some updates for the Wave as well as all of the other weapons. Also, for some bizarre reason, *none* of my product update servers are working properly since Linden Lab banned me, so I apparently have some research to do on the vendors and update servers that’s probably going to keep me busy for a few days
Thanks again folks, I appreciate hearing everyone’s position and thoughts.